The Future of MQ and ties to Forever-hacking.

Teh_ish · Post by **Teh_ish** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:42 pm

I've been having some troubles connecting to the irc server, and I finally got them resolved after asking on the F-H boards how to fix it. I came into the channel and was greeted with this in the topic: "Http://macroquest2.com/downloads/MQ2-Latest.zip || F-H modifications complete - PM pragma with concerns - do not discuss things here you couldnt post on level 1"

I'd just like to say.. WTF? The whole reason that MQ is seperate from forever-hacking is because we are seperate. I don't like being on their IRC server, as I'm against almost everything they represent(cheating versus enhancement), but that can pass. I am, however, completely against them dictating what can be discussed in our chan. MQ is an open-source community based on sharing knowledge and information. Forever-hacking is about producing closed-source programs that help you cheat. They are two entirely seperate communities, and I am very very worried that we are just going to become a branch of the script kiddy mentality at F-H.

Are we now no longer able to discuss matters in our channel unless we have the appropriate clearance? Isn't the whole point of being open-source to have everyone know everything, both the good and bad? The only thing that the F-H level system breeds is elitism, and we don't need that. My personal opinion is that we need to break away from F-H now. We are not cheaters, we do break the rules, but we don't cheat. Why not find another IRC server and be done with them. They're welcome to have our information, as that's the spirit of our community, but they should not be in charge of how things are run. I don't want to see Pragma start classifying plugins with levels.

So I ask you devs... Where is MQ going? Are we destined to become another branch of F-H? Is MQ going to be moved up to level 2 or something assinine like that? How far are we going to go along with the script kiddies bowing and kneeling along the way?

kirre · Post by **kirre** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:05 pm

[quote]MQ is an open-source community based on sharing knowledge and information. Forever-hacking is about producing closed-source programs that help you cheat.[/quote]

I have to agree on this, this is not the first open source project i been in where somthing i like this has come up. Putting in my 2sp with a /agree. Please keep the 2 communities seperate.

chow
Kirre

psychotik · Post by **psychotik** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:28 pm

though i agree we are seperate communities, i think that youre going overboard on this. i dont see whats wrong in him asking for people not to talk about stuff like megawarp etc in non private channels where everyone can see. the more people without it the better.

you say you dont want them classifying plugins with levels, but thats wrong to say because some of the stuff i dont think just the adverage joe schmoe should have, not because im elitest but because its best that lots of people dont get their hands on it.

i guess i see it differently though, because you see enhancement i still see cheating either way, thats like calling showeq enhancement.

what they are doing at f-h is meant to keep the things out of the hands of the script kiddies, though you call them that, some of them are well educated and know their stuff (unlike me har har)

Teh_ish · Post by **Teh_ish** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 12:01 am

psychotik wrote:though i agree we are seperate communities, i think that youre going overboard on this. i dont see whats wrong in him asking for people not to talk about stuff like megawarp etc in non private channels where everyone can see. the more people without it the better.

you say you dont want them classifying plugins with levels, but thats wrong to say because some of the stuff i dont think just the adverage joe schmoe should have, not because im elitest but because its best that lots of people dont get their hands on it.

i guess i see it differently though, because you see enhancement i still see cheating either way, thats like calling showeq enhancement.

what they are doing at f-h is meant to keep the things out of the hands of the script kiddies, though you call them that, some of them are well educated and know their stuff (unlike me har har)

The key difference between MQ and F-H is that MQ is about automating tasks humans can perform, and F-H is about doing things humans can't do. We don't need to become a subsidiary of F-H. You say that F-H just keeps info out of the hands of people who shouldn't have it.. Fine and good. But the idea that you can just crawl up ranks by posting l33t sploits, and if you say something that some admin has deemed "not level 1" you get in trouble.. F-H is the antithesis of everything that opensource is about. This is about how, historically, levels are arbitrary and given to whoever sucks up the most. They still are, it's just got a visible carrot people can strive for. The whole level system is a giant game of suckup... "How many points can I accrue for that verbal cocksucking?" etc.

If we really want to keep the nasty stuff out of the hands of joe schmoe, then why should anyone have it if they can't find it themselves? I've seen some of the people who are level 2 or 3 on F-H.. Just "..." is all I have to say. People shouldn't be able to "earn" access to the nasty stuff by posting lots of offsets. They can either find it themselves, or it's part of the community. I advocate #2. Let the nasty stuff go public, and SoE can fix it.

I donno.. Am I the only one here who really cares? It seems, talking in IRC, that a lot of people don't care that we're slowly being assimilated.

Elric · Post by **Elric** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 1:37 am

I think he has a good point. I understand that our Admins/Devs have ties to the F-H boards, and I don't judge on that account. Hell, even I have ties there.

But that doesn't matter. We're an entirely different community. And our devs/admins know that, and won't let us become something like they are.

So no worries about our future, or our status in said future. Unless things go way overboard, there isn't a problem.

Kint · Post by **Kint** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:05 am

umm, doesn't FH own the MQ irc server? as long as it's on their server, it's their rules.

Teh_ish · Post by **Teh_ish** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:07 am

Kint wrote:umm, doesn't FH own the MQ irc server? as long as it's on their server, it's their rules.

Exactly.. Which is why we need to consider a move.

Pragma · Post by **Pragma** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 3:37 am

There are a few points to consider:

1) Many MQ ppl including but not limited to Mckorr, Lax, and Valerian are F-H members, the communites have ties in thier member base as well.

2) Everyone from both sites alike talk in #macroquest. Dont ask me why.

3) If I recall corectly, it was in #macroquest that everyone was talking about megawarp. So I feel I have the right to post such a title there.

However, I can see your logic

dont_know_at_all · Post by **dont_know_at_all** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:36 am

http://macroquest2.com/main.php?p=irc

TheColonel · Post by **TheColonel** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 7:48 am

I second the motion of /muteing people that are blabing in a open-to-the-public channel about things that will be nerfed if enough people start abusing them... and the road to nerfdom is paved with idiots who abuse something(most of the time they aren't creative enough to think of it on their own so they rely on that chat)... but I've gotten detoured... or have I?

Mckorr · Post by **Mckorr** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:39 am

DKAA has moved the IRC server. 'Nuff said on that.

1) Many MQ ppl including but not limited to Mckorr, Lax, and Valerian are F-H members, the communites have ties in thier member base as well.

I wouldn't exactly say I have "ties" there. I do drop in from time to time to see what is up (I'm lvl 1 btw, so no, I have no idea what the 'lite folks are up to). For ages I used a different name there, "Herulin", simply to keep these two identities seperate.

I've stated openly I don't care for the level system at F-H. Personally I'd love to see what is possible with "my" code because it would help me improve my programming skills... and you might get your 3rd generation mouse code a bit earlier

The level system pretty much keeps me out of seeing the advanced possibilities, and in my opinion makes it useless to the further development of MQ as an open source project.

Now, I do understand the hacker mentality, the desire to keep certain hacks and cracks secret from the rest of the world so that others don't misuse them and end up causing the holes to be plugged. I understand that the sharing of exploits is based on trust, and that that is supposed to be the criteria for advancement at F-H.

But you will NOT see that kind of system here, nor will I support any attempt to limit the free exchange of information here or any place affiliated with this project, as long as that information falls within the stated goals of MacroQuest as an ENHANCEMENT and AUTOMATION tool, rather than as a vehicle for EXPLOITS.

No, F-H shouldn't be able to limit the MQ userbase to levels... but then if you are discussing exploits outside the mission of this project you shouldn't be doing it in the MQ chat anyway. Take it to F-H, or your own IRC channel.

eqjoe · Post by **eqjoe** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:40 am

Sure, its a shame that the guys at o.O are elitist assholes that cheat, hack and horde the “how to” all the while they make public the “what”. But before you start bashing those elitist assholes too much, check the o.O list with the developers list here.

What the level system does at F-H, is keeps a lot of good, smart players from sharing information. I work for a high tech internet security company where we have many excellent programmers (and hackers) which don’t give F-H the time of day because they don’t like the elitism level system. Its their world that they created. If you don’t like it, don’t participate. .

Plazmic · Post by **Plazmic** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:45 am

Personally, I was given o.O at F-H just because of MQ...
I just checked, I have an amazing post count of ZERO =)

ap50 · Post by **ap50** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:28 am

Yeah, but you're like PLAZMIC
/genuflect

Teh_ish · Post by **Teh_ish** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:02 am

eqjoe wrote:Its their world that they created. If you don’t like it, don’t participate. .

That was sort of the point of this post :)

In any case, I'm happy. We moved, everything's wuwujejeje. Matter done